45 acp damage human body

Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. Vital organs sit deep within the human body, so penetration and permanent cavity volume are important factors. There is also the very real factor of life-or-death, fight-or-flight stress. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. It goes in a like a nail.. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. Why bullet size matters in police shootings | PoliceOne.com SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. She said she shot him. While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. Its only popular because of the name brand, not the true performance against other guns. This doesnt factor shot placement. the article mentions that where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Okay, I have to give them props on this part of the statement because this is 100% correct. A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. Damage: 22 per pellet. Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. Please dont send me any hate mail. Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. My point being, is animals dont always die the same. 45 ACP Guns dont kill people. Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed. WebAs shown in Fig. The Simple Physics That Makes Some Bullets Deadlier Than But you have to shoot the gun your most accurate with and most comfortable with but if you dont seat the grip of any pistol in the web of the hand deeply all guns no matter what the caliber the gun will whip in the hand. The FBI Training Division reported in May 2014 that officers, on average, strike an adversary with only 20 percent to 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. If I remember my undergraduate physics, acceleration is defined as a change in velocity or a change in vector. A lot. .4570, .454 Casull and .460 Super Mag are all tremendously powerful. .45 acp is a good round and I prefer it used in close quarter environments becuse it is heavier and pack more energy. Thats funny. You might be able to talk to the first guy. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. The projectile is losing velocity and arcing downward. Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). Of course, not being in the military, or law enforcement, my goal is no collateral damage! All the scientific debates the fact is both are great but its interesting to me as a marine my understanding that the 45 was developed for the jungle warfare against drugged up Muslim extremist in the Philippines inthat timeframe and then fast forward to Falluja drugged up Muslims extremist And everybody Marines wanted 45 again In real situations Where it matters most I just wrote my friend who is in the thick of - and Falluja lost an arm multiple casualties and his answer was quick and simple 45. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. I havent heard anything about the M17 yet, but I am guessing that people will say at least they arent completely worn out and rattling like a kids toy, with parts falling off them, like all the M9s were.. Confirmed by projectiles taken out of Papa. It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. The 9 mm and the round for the 9 mm is by far the cheaper not the better choice! and that the data you submit is exempt from Do Not Sell My Personal Information requests. Give SOCOM GLocks which shoot 9mm (Glocks are great guns and I dont have a problem with the 9mm, great cartridge especially with all the advancements over the last 30 years) as I was saying problem solved. Hunt! I have several calibers, personally I like my Sig 239 40cal as my sidearm ! WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. It simply means that if you can shoot someone in the head, basically anything will do. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. Explore. In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. Sorry for the rant. Seems to me that American businesses take it in the chin enough already without this insult. Example; a bb to the eyeball is very effective. Because of the dynamic and chaotic nature of officer-involved shootings, officers are trained to shoot at center mass of an assailants torso from whatever side/angle of the torso that presents itself. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in, Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. How many decades are we going to have this debate? The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . 25 yard 1.52 off hand 5 rnd groups on the nose. I served in the USMC and in combat. Really late to the discussion. Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. Theres been many people shot and continue. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. Where the human component is a significant factor thats been deleted from so many test results. Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. If Agent Doves bullet had entered Platts heart, he would have perished quickly, before launching his life-ending assault. Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies The P227 Tacops holds 14 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber so 15 rounds is similar to the Glock. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. Most self-defense shootings take place inside 20 feet and are over in seconds; if Im out in public and shooting beyond that distance, itll probably be tough to sell as self-defense to a judge and/or jury anyway. A 1911 in 9MM? I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. So In a effort to Talk to someone that has been shot with a 9mm FMJ round and ask them what it feels like and contrast that to someone that has been shot with a 45 ACP FMJ round. Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. To make a long govt document short, the armor would likely stop a 9mm with a few bruises. Wounding one enemy combatant to take three out of the fight (or at least two) was a good argument when we were facing civilized enemies such as the Germans in WW II. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. Riley Bowman is the Director of Training at ConcealedCarry.com and the Host of the Concealed Carry Podcast. And I can certainly understand WHY you would be led to thinking that switching to the Glock 21 would improve your chances of getting a stop. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. I am a colt Gvt. No regrets. For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss. Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. I do believe that whether its a 9 mm or 45 caliber youve got to be accurate with the placement of that round otherwise youre just wasting shots. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. There was no blood on the floor below him. What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? To everyone thats been in a shooting with a .45 Auto, and they say, Thank goodness it was a .45 because I only had to use one or two shots. Its just confirmation bias. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. This is accomplished through simple physics; a larger bullet imparts more force into its target than a smaller one. As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. to stop the threat. The projectile tears through the body causing tissue damage and creating a wound channel. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. Different bullets and guns have different patterns. We were trained with a .45, to protect the patient. Surprising, I know, given the current state of affairs in DC. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not penetrate the outside skin of a car body. The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was But it is no longer valid against todays terrorists, and the mindset they fight with. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. 45 guy and .357 mag lover . Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. Your tax-deductible donation will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? My next handgun will be either a Ruger SR 1911 or a Kimber 1911 clone. And It will get the job done quite handily. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. So they fudge the data. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. There is no substitute for experience. And let us not forget the adrenaline factor. Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. No lab test can tell you how likely a round is to drop an assailant, but they can tell you how destructive a round is upon impact, which is the best metric youre going to get. Why arent both so much better than .223? 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. Ships To Store. And speed causes expansion of bullets in a meat target. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. too powerful??? Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. If you kill one, you take one out of battle. Richard, I guess I have little feminine hands as I prefer to carry my 9mm for self-defense and on duty. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? Your shot placement will be perfect. The debate isnt settled. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. Startle affect. If the Government is involved in any way, money will change hands. I even tried to do the same test with my Tuger SR9 compact and it was a worse outcome than the Walther. Its all about follow up shots. Involved in a shooting with my partner. round, you can see all three effects. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. Now as far as the technology of rounds go, technology has improved for all of the basic calibers including 45 so there is no advantage there for the 9. I still did like the 39-2 for CC. Even minor and common factors can significantly impact the wounding ability of a round, including damage to a hollow point through contact with any intervening material, from glass to bone. Ret. I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. But according to the FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) it isnt possible. I have my personal preferences and it is the .45 ACP, next is the 40 S&W, down the line a couple of notches is the 9mm. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. Handgun cartridges just dont do that. Because bullet strikes to the torso will not immediately incapacitate an adversary and will not knock him to the ground, police officers need to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. I see your point. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . According to the song the battle for New Orleans, canonbalks were fired from alligator mouths which showed resourcefulness. And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. Your shots have to count. Since 1959 we have striven as a family-owned business to build a gun shop that is here to grow with your family. So banter on gentlemen. The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. You're free to republish or share any of our articles (either in part or in full), which are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. The latest in 9mm bullet tech performs much better than in the past on windshields. My understanding in past test 9mms dont do well in front car windshield stops. Okay 9s are cool, hold a lot of rounds, small recoil, cheap to shoot and buy. In most courtrooms today a good lawyer will take you apart for shooting a home invader more than one time if you hit him with the first shot in other words you wounded him with the first shot why did you keep shooting? When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. Maybe if you were trying to make 100+ yard shot thatd make a little difference. If I think it can get that bad where Im going. I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. Possible off hand 200. 3 more replies -8w7- 13 hr. But with the way things are going today I decided it was time, so I just bought S&W M&P 9 Shield. While the tissue affected by the temporary cavity isnt completely destroyed like that in the direct path of the bullet, it does suffer trauma, especially if the bullet travels past less-flexible parts of the body, like bone or dense organs like the liver, which can shatter or rupture from the shockwave. One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. But I agree, I would LOVE to see more true American companies represented!! In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. Great little weapon !!! Now call me a troll as I suspect you may be in love with your clunky Glock and .9mm round. What I have seen over the years on this debate, is that the majority, not all, prefer the 9mm due to its minimal recoil, magazine capacity and concealability. It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. Fair testing without the bias of budgets and the need to carry what every one else is carrying would be quite refreshing and lend more to the safety of the officer or soldier who may be fighting his or her life. I think it maybe a case of, its better to wound the enemy, than to kill him. Really.. and air on the nose of the bullet?! In stark contrast, the vast majority of incidents involving .40 S&W and .45 ACP resulted in gunshot victims being DRT; they dropped and expired right where they were initially shot, even with imperfect shot placement. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. I seen it first hand as well. This is because, unless you get a central nervous system hit extremely difficult there is no physiological reason a target would become incapacitated until blood loss and extreme loss of blood pressure occurs. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. If you want to test that theory in a real world environment. 45 Acp Damage Human Body If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. Oh yeah, I long forgot where I read it. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/, http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/, https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/, Victim Uses Awareness And a Gun to End Armed Attacker, S8E5: The Battle over Gun Registration & Assault Weapon Ban Rages On, Man Disarmed And Shot With Own Handgun in Parking Lot, Finally a Holster for the SIRT Pocket Pistol, Watch This Before You Shoot Your Pistol!! It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and What do you Think of the S&W Shield? It scares the hell out of me to think I might have had to use a 9 mm. Category:Human body That will put anything down.But if it comes time to kill a man should there be any fun in it. Officer Needs Help!!! Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. Both are great calibers. Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! It was a contact shot into the center chest on a sleeping target. The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. I imagine humans are the same. The USMC changed to 9mm since female Marines had trouble with recoil and were not qualifying at same rate as males. Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing significant and potentially lethal blood loss. There are a number of reasons for a failure to incapacitate, including a lack of awareness of the wound, intense personal fortitude, extreme emotions or physiological effects both natural (adrenaline) or chemically-induced (drugs such as PCP, heroin and cocaine). I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. Any weapon is only as good as its owner, making the person behind the trigger the single greatest factor in how much stopping power a gun ultimately yields.

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